The Debate Continues:
Once again, I am forced to publish both sides of this debate as ASOJ will not.
“aservantofJehovah said…
@FV: O.K loudmouth, time to throw down,I hereby challenge you to A) name an example of an organisation with a superior child protection policy to the WTS’s policy as documented at JW-Media.org and to furnish us with the url.to this supposed superior policy,so that we can all make our own comparison B) supply us with these long awaited stats supporting your slanderous claim that child molestation is more prevalent among JWS than the population at large.Both these challenges should simplicity itself if your claims of a massive systemic failure among JWs re:child protection are anything more than self-serving propaganda.
December 31, 2011 11:38 AM”
My Rebuttal:
I think Mark Twain put it best (see above)
Servant, I have NEVER claimed that the incidence of child molestation is GREATER among Jehovah’s Witnesses than the ‘population at large.’ Making this claim, you are slandering ME. All I have claimed is that there is a systemic failure which has (effectively) not prevented historic, and will not (effectively) prevent and future incidents of this type within this organisation. The EVIDENCE I have presented (so far there has been NONE from you) gives PROOF to this claim.
Servant, you must try to give up using emotive expressions like: “loud-mouth,” “long awaited stats,” “slanderous claim,” “massive systemic failure,” “self-serving propaganda.” Few would recognise this as appropriate debating etiquette. Please just supply your claim and your EVIDENCE to back that up.
Thanks.
aservantofJehovah said…
?No stats,no documentation,self-serving,desperate,contrived misintepretations of the society’s clear child-protection policy.
Self-serving speculations as to the thoughts/motivations of individuals,who cares that they are not here to speak for themselves.Certainly not our self-styled pontiff of ethics mr.FV.As the accuser the full burden of proof is on you.You have failed miserably in shouldering that burden mr.FV.But don’t feel to badly none of your apostate confederates can do any better.”
aservantofJehovah said…
“Here’s the another problem with mr.FV’s grand conspiracy theory.There is simply no way to hide a problem of the scale that he and his cohorts are suggesting.That is why their failure to provide stats from a reputable body is so telling.Remember Jehovah’s witnesses don’t live in communes off in the woods.Hundreds of thousands of them share homes with non-witness spouses,they all share communities with non-witness family,neighbors,workmates,their children for the most part attend public schools.Are all these in on the conspiracy of silence as well?Why is that aparrently only apostates have gotten wind of this enormous problem?
If you haven’t bought in to the propaganda of JW opposers the answer should be quite obvious.”
My Rebuttal:
Why can’t you just admit, Servant, that all this bluster has come about simply because you couldn’t find the statistics at the JW site that you expected (either in your imagination or otherwise). Save yourself further humiliation and just admit that you’re wrong on almost every point you make. Religion conditions you to see things this way. Sad really.
The fact is that, as Mark Twain suggested, statistics cannot tell the accurate story, especially in the case of child sexual abuse. They will always be used as propaganda, they can be easily massaged, rarely the whole story is told. The 2007 WTBTS statement cited at Mark’s Governing Body site is a case in point. The statement only ‘covers’ the incidents they have on hand of ELDERS and convictions for child abuse! What on earth has this to do with the bigger picture?
Your calling me apostate is also incorrect. As the subject of child abuse is not covered in the New Testament, there is no reason to believe that this non-Biblical subject is Biblical apostasy – sound logical?
Servant: “Here’s the another problem with mr.FV’s grand conspiracy theory.There is simply no way to hide a problem of the scale that he and his cohorts are suggesting…”
Surely you jest, sir. This offering shows how little you know about this complex subject. The fact that sexual child abuse has only been brought to light mainly in the late 20th century/21st century is all the evidence one needs to understand why people keep such appalling crimes silent.
FV
aservantofJehovah said…
Only in the diseased minds of apostates is the accused required to prove anything.It is a universally accepted norm of natural justice that the entire burden of proof rest on the accuser,again where are your stats.Another reason that their failure to provide stats is telling how can the society possibly silence all of these tens of thousands of victims once they are old enough to speak for themselves,remember being born to witness parents does not make one a JW.So it would be impossible to sanction these persons unless they choose to formalize their relationship with the community by becoming baptized.Hardly likely after having their childhood so cruelly taken away with full knowledge and complicity of said community.so where are these tens of thousands of voices,imagine the propaganda coup our opposers would get if they organize such a demonstration,tens of thousands of former victims from all over the world marching on our headquarters in full view of the world press.
But we all know if were at all possible it would have been done already.
My Rebuttal:
Need more convincing, Servant? Try this:
“Contrary to the implication of the title, statistics do not create themselves; people have to create them. There is no such thing as a perfect statistic, but some are less imperfect than others. Furthermore, we must realize that whether you’re an activist, politician, salesperson, or a scientist, people use statistics to persuade. Confused? Must we all become statisticians to differentiate between good and bad or imperfect from less-than-perfect statistics? The purpose of this article is to identify some of the most common misuses of statistics and, in doing so, help you become a critical thinker, especially as it relates to those remarkable claims from salespeople and product advertisements.”
- How Statistics can lie, by James H. Baird
(http://turf.unl.edu/extpresentationspdf/BairdStats.pdf)
Read the article.
More?
“VANCOUVER (NEWS1130) – Sixty per cent of the time it works every time! A new report suggests statistics can be used to prove whatever you want them to prove, even complete falsehoods.Seventy-one per cent of news reporters think the title is too long, but False-Positive Psychology: Undisclosed Flexibility in Data Collection and Analysis Allows Presenting Anything as Significant appears in the latest issue of the journal Psychological Science.
The authors, two scientists at the University of Pennsylvania and one from Berkeley, argue that academic psychologists have too much flexibility with juggling numbers. They say it is 100 per cent too easy to gather statistically significant evidence to prove a false hypothesis, and those false results can be persistent in scientific literature.”
- You can Prove Anything with Statistics, by Mike Lloyd (http://www.news1130.com/news/local/article/301663–you-can-prove-anything-with-statistics)
Read the article
Servant: “…how can the society possibly silence all of these tens of thousands of victims once they are old enough to speak for themselves…”
Servant, the chances of remembering any sort of abuse before the age of five are so slim as to be dismissed. Many victims themselves choose to keep their trials silent because of the trauma involved (note, for example the courage it has taken when the immoral deeds of Catholic priests have been reported for countless other victims to come out and tell of their experiences). Some victims only become aware of the abuse when something apparently unrelated triggers the memory (ies).
Also, because the nature of forms of abuse have only comparatively recently been identified, many victims have had no basis on which to judge their memories. If they are JWs it’s just as likely they may choose to keep their experiences to themselves.
This argument is specious.
Once again, Servant, your comments are full of bluster. YOU are the one who accused ME of being a ‘lying propagandist’! As the above articles demonstrate, statistics are not proof of anything. It is even a stretch to value them as an indications.
Is it name-calling and spurious reasoning that are your excuses for ‘proof’?
“County Donegal in Ireland is about to have its bucolic image shattered by a report into how paedophiles, both clergy and laity, abused children for decades… O’Donnell said that in 1973 he went to a local Garda station to report that he had been raped by the man, who has since died. He said the reaction to his claim was violent.
“A local guard was outraged that I was naming such a fine upstanding member of the community as a child rapist. The officer slapped me on the face and told me to get out. He said to me that I was adopted and not worth anything. From that day on I never fully trusted a member of the Garda Síochána.””
– Catholic Church ‘abused children for decades in County Donegal’, By Henry McDonald, Guardian Newspaper, 2011
(http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/aug/29/catholic-clergy-children-donegal-report)
You must understand, Servant, I am NOT saying that this will prove to be the same in this religious organisation, simply to point out your naivety with regard to ANYTHING you say on this subject.
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